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Talbot Express Technical
Peugeot J5 (Citreon C25, Fiat
Ducato) |
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Disclaimer: No responsibility can be taken for the accuracy or
appropriateness of any information given on these pages. The information has
been gathered from several sources including my own personal experiences, however the validity of the
information cannot be verified and it is provided for interest only on the
understanding that no responsibility can be accepted for loss or damage of
any kind arising from any actions or behaviour in relation to the information
contained herein. In particular If you are in anyway unsure of the potential consequences
of your actions you should not undertake the work.
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Workshop Manuals |
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There is no Haynes Manual for this model although there are other manuals which cover the mechanicals as follows:
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Overview |
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This is what I've gleaned so far but may not be entirely accurate ....... All the models are made in Italy by PSA, a joint venture by Fiat, Citroën and Peugeot. The Talbot Express petrol first came out in about 1984 as an 1800cc and was very shortly bored out to 2000cc. It stayed that way till the end of the production of this model in 1994. The petrol engine is the same unit as in the Fiat Ducato of the same years. The diesel units are a bit more complex: the Citroën C25 and Talbot Express 2500cc is the all the same apart from the badge. As Peugeot own Talbot they call the European Version of the Talbot Express a Peugeot J5. The Fiat Ducatos are the same appearance as the other vans, apart from the engine: an overhead cam engine made by Sofin (an Italian manufacturer). This engine is also fitted to Fiat Daily, Renault Traffic 2500cc, etc. The 1900cc diesel engine fitted to the Talbot Express / Citroëns is an engine built and used by Peugeot and Citroën. The Fiat Ducato 1900cc is Fiat’s own unit. Both 1900cc and 2500cc could be specially ordered with turbos. Many parts however on turbo-units are different.
The gearbox comes in 4 or 5 speed versions with different ratios to match 14" or 16" wheeled vans. The integral gearbox and bell housing casings means the gearbox will couple to 5 different engines. There are at least six variations.
The internals of the gearboxes can be changed over to suit many
applications.
In later years of
manufacture the gearbox internal bearing types were changed. The 16" wheeled Maxi type vans being 3500kg gross vehicles have heavier drive train and brakes, bigger c/v joints, larger discs at the front and rear drum brake, plus bigger wheel bearings all round. These models were more likely to have power steering but that is still very rare (and not really necessary).
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Engine General |
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The Talbot Express base vehicles have a very robust petrol engine a derivative of which was once used successfully in rallying!. The Engine has a Steel Crankshaft, twin valve springs and duplex timing chain (almost twice the thickness of a standard chain) which allow it to turn very high RPM safely (Max power is produced @ 5800rpm on some car variants, although the de-tuned van version is @ 5000rpm) and still retain a high degree of reliability. The engine is effectively “choked’ by the Carburettor, exhaust manifold and Camshaft profile which sacrifice BHP for Torque. The 1.8 and 2.0 engines are virtually identical (the increase in capacity being achieved by increasing the bore size) but the 1.8s were not to my knowledge fitted to vans. Some Motor Factor’s parts books may list the 1.8 but not the 2.0 which is unlikely to cause any problems. There were
a number of relatively minor but effective upgrades to the
engine/carburetion in the facelift models (1991 onwards).
Tthe Diesel engines are NOT considered as robust
as the petrol versions. The Petrol engines came straight out
of Peugeot 505s but the diesels were apparently a converted petrol
type from Citroen without significant modification. Replacement parts for the
Diesels can also be very expensive. Of the engine types available (2.0 petrol, 1.9 and 2.5 NA diesels and 2.5 Turbo Diesel) the petrol motor is by far the quietest and quickest to warm up, The Petrol and Turbo Diesels are the most powerful (the TD having a slight power and useful torque advantage) and the N/A Diesels are unfortunately considered very poor. Other user’s experience and posted comments of the N/A Diesels suggests they are significantly under-powered for a Coachbuilt body (probably not too bad in a van or hightop conversion). All engines
are considerably underpowered compared to modern high-torque units. Having driven the more powerful
Petrol engined version (updated 1991 model which is barely more than adequate in a coachbuilt) I certainly would
not consider the lower powered N/A diesels. Practical Motorhome ran an article
on these engines in early 2007 with the same conclusion. Annual Mileage for a UK Coachbuilt is typically only 2-4k and
therefore the slight fuel saving of
diesel is negligible compared to the downside. LPG conversions are available for Petrol Variants from £500 - £1500 (DIY kits to Fully installed) . From Personal experience and other's comments the engines run a lot smoother, however they give appox 10% LESS power on a vehicle already under powered by modern standards, the LPG tanks weigh quite a lot and so reduce your load capacity (unless you keep the petrol tank level low), the installation is quite difficult ( mostly in relation to mounting the tank correctly) and extremely dangerous if fitted incorrectly. Fortunately the insurance company will insist that the system has a safety check report issued by an LPGA Approved installer (approx £50). Running on LPG requires a significantly advanced timing point which is not good for petrol so a compromised engine set up is required. Personally I tolerate a reduced Petrol performance and run at 14 degrees BTDC which gives excellent LPG performance. Some say that the different burn characteristics of LPG require the spark plug gaps to be altered (reduced to .6mm) and LPG can overload the engine’s electrical ignition system, however I run new standard plugs at .7mm (standard setting) and have not noticed misfires under any conditions, indeed the engine runs much smoother, particularly a lower RPM. . Based on my average annual mileage of 3-4k per annum it took just over 2 years to break even, but the real advantage to me is that the much higher mpg compared to petrol means I'm happier to use it more often without worrying about fuel costs as much. |
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Engine Specs: |
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(every UK model I've seen has been a 170B unit) |
ABA/169 (XM7T) : 1.8 |
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XUD9A (D9B) : 1.9 |
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1.9 Litre
Diesel |
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2.0 Petrol |
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Capacity |
1905cc |
Capacity |
1971cc |
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Max Power |
71PS
(51kW) @4600 rpm |
Max Power |
85PS
(62.5kW) @ 4750rpm |
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Max Torque |
12.5mkg
(122 Nm) @ 2000rpm |
Max Torque |
15.5mkg
(152 Nm) @ 2500rpm |
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2.5 L
Diesel |
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2.5L Turbo
Diesel |
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Capacity |
2500cc |
Capacity |
2500cc |
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Max Power |
75PS
(54kW) @ 4100rpm |
Max Power |
95PS
(70kW) @3700rpm |
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Max Torque |
15mkg
(147 Nm) @ 2000 |
Max Torque |
21.4mkg
(210 Nm) @2000rpm |
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Engine Number Locations |
Engine Type identification Plate (1991 Petrol) (These plates are held on with a rivet and prone to rusting off!)
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Ignition Sequence (Firing Order)
Firing order is 1-3-4-2,
No.1 is at the gearbox end, |
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Known Issues |
There are only a few issues specific to the Talbot Express base vehicles which are regarded as having pretty much “Bullet proof” engines and rust-free chassis (Van conversions do have the usual body-rust problems of any van but not the chassis-cabs which are very well protected) |
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Exhaust Manifold |
The manifold studs corrode badly and can snap off eventually. They snap due to:
The manifold to head gaskets can fail (symptom is a "chuffing" noise when driving) allowing additional air into the exhaust on the over-run and possibly contributing to “popping”/backfiring through the exhaust. If you get this symptom first try relocating (or removing) the flexible air intake hose from behind the grill (under the spare wheel) as it "ram-air" the carb and causes excessively weak mixtures on the overrun when the carb is worn. Removal of the studs can be accomplished from underneath. Tip: soak the nuts in easing/penetrating oil (not WD40!) prior to attempting the job. If you can’t get the studs out then the head needs to be removed . This is a relatively simple task on this engine (as heads go) but still to be avoided if at all possible. The studs can then be drilled out professionally (approx £20 per stud) and the head skimmed (£40). Re-assembly with new gaskets (and head bolts if “Torx” type). Total cost excluding labour <£100 and unlikely to happen more than once in your ownership of the vehicle (provided you don’t persist with a worn rear mount or refit a warped manifold of course). Try not to over-tighten the manifold to Exhaust bolts either. Special
note1: if purchasing a second hand manifold be very careful that it is
not already warped (even from "specialist" breakers). They tend to cost a
lot and will be no better quality than the original. Personally I would pay
twice as much to get a guaranteed new one of better quality from a main
dealer.
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Head corrosion |
The engine is sensitive to having the antifreeze/inhibitor to coolant water ratio maintained. Unfortunately this is often overlooked particularly when the vehicle is seldom used. A complete coolant flush and renewal should be done every 2 years (or longer if using a long-life antifreeze). If it does develop a (minor) internal water do not attempt to seal it using Radweld or “Barrs Leaks” as they don’t work. Halfords Block Sealer (horrible stuff) does work but is an emergency product only which is not anti-freeze compatible. If you’re looking at purchasing a vehicle and it has a lot of red residue in the header tank then you should be concerned!
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Final Drive / Gearbox Oil Leak / Level |
Also see Gearbox Page here: Typically leaks from where the Speedometer cable enters the box and is clearly visible from under the vehicle. Easily cured with instant-gasket (the blue jelly-like stuff not Hematite) or by purchasing a £25 cable support bracket from Peugeot (I’ve not tried this). This gearbox has a very strange design and filling arrangement. The case is divided internally by a baffle/dam which rises from the floor to a height just below the filler level on the gearbox dipstick. It has separate drain plugs and It should be filled from the Reversing light hole but please see the Gearbox specific pages (link above) for further details.
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Gearbox Linkage |
Notorious (unjustly so in my opinion) the linkage is prone to wear in few specific points and can even be bent out of adjustment by (very) rough handling. It is adjustable but not always easy to get right (trial and error) especially if the engine mounts are worn. Adjustment symptoms may include bashing your hand on the dashboard when engaging 1st,3rd,5th or being unable to select specific gears. The good news is that this is not a fault with the gear box and the linkages can easily (and cheaply ) be repaired / adjusted in most cases, or if not the linkage can even be replaced with an refurbished one ( the latter being a rather an expensive option though). For more detail see my gearbox page here.
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General Technical Issues |
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Misfiring / Lack of power |
IMPORTANT - check at all the usual suspects first as this is most likely where any misfire or significant loss of power is occurring. Only after discounting these should you move on to the more unusual problems that might arrise:
Failing that try the following :
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Idle Cut-Off Valve |
The idle cut-off valve sticks out the left
side of the carburettor (RH when viewed from the front of the vehicle) and
has an electrical connector on the end. The function of the valve is to shut
off the idle fuel when the ignition is turned off, so preventing 'running on'. It provides
fuel at low medium revs too, acting in a similar way to the idle jet, so if
it's not working you'll get a rough idle and/or lean mix at lower revs.
The idle cut-off valve wired into the same
wiring which powers the coil so it opens whenever the ignition is on,
allowing the idle fuel to flow. If it fails in the shut position the engine will
still run (roughly) on the main jets but will stall as soon as you take your
foot off the throttle. If it sticks in the open position the idle fuel
circuit will remain open, so if the engine is still turning it will still
draw fuel through the idle jet, resulting in possible running on if there is a hot
spot in one or more cylinders. with the idle cut-off
solenoid working correctly, hot spots in the cylinders don’t matter so much,
since there is no fuel available to keep the engine running once you turn off
the ignition.
It is very easy to check the idle cut-off
valve to make sure it is functioning properly. Turn the ignition on (but do
not start the engine). Disconnect the electrical lead from the valve, then touch it to the connector again. If it's working,
you'll hear a clicking sound as the relay pulls in. If you do not hear this
clicking sound, it's time to replace the idle cut-off valve. They are cheap
enough. When replacing the idle-cut off valve in the carburettor, don't screw it in too hard ... it has fine brass threads and it's screwed into the soft metal of the carburettor. Also check that the valve hasn't worked loose in the carburettor -- they do sometimes, and then work only intermittently. And of course make sure that it's properly connected electrically, the lead can break off.
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Engine / Gear Oil |
Change Engine Oil regularly (at least annually for the engine) even if the 6000 mile service change hasn’t been reached. Use the appropriate good quality mineral oil and not some thinner (and more expensive) synthetic oil for this engine. Personally I'm a fan of Castrol GTX and have used it in all my older vehicles for over 20 years.
Use GL5 spec gear oil for the gearbox (check the specs in the manual). I get best Gearbox performance from Semi-Synthetic 75w90 which is only slightly more expensive given the small amount required, and well worth it!.
Unusual Oil leaks such as around the timing chain cover can be and indication of excessive crack case pressure which may be caused by blocked (collapsed) breather hoses and/or blocked flame traps (the round items with wire mesh inside them on the breather hoses). Clean the flame traps using fuel or degreaser making sure they are thoroughly dry afterwards and replace any collapsed hoses. Often this will cure unusual oil leaks.
Note that a small amount of “mayonaise” in the oil is not uncommon when looking where the oil is filled and the breather pipes on these engines due to their design and nature of use (i.e. infrequent use leads to moisture condensing from the air in the filler housing and crankcase) however the dipstick and oil drained from the engine should be clear.
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Brake fluid |
MUST be changed at 2 yearly intervals irrespective of use as the fluid absorbs moisture from the atmosphere (hydroscopic) which will degrade its performance and contribute to brake fade (very serious). The brakes are not that big and have a lot of work to do on these vehicles particularly given that Coachbuilt Motorhomes typically run at close to their Maximum weight at all times.
The task is made considerably easier with the use of a
one-man pressure bleeding kit such as Gunson’s “Eezi-bleed” (£15 from
Halfords), and takes less than an hour (excluding tea breaks!) doing it this
way. I find 10psi is perfectly adequate for the task. Do not use too higher
pressure or the Eezi-Bleed seals may fail introducing considerable air into
the fluid. You do not have to jack up the van but it may be worth spraying
the bleed nipples with easing oil (e.g. WD-40) the night before and be
careful not tighten them too much afterwards. Snapping a nipple off in a
calliper could be very time consuming / expensive. As a guide New callipers
are £165 and reconditioned ones are £95, new flexible hoses for the front are
£10 - £15 each. These are 2005 prices from an excellent local motor factor (
Swindon Auto parts,
Follow the bleed sequence in the manual which is rears first, then upper front cylinders, then lower fronts. I’d recommend you bleed most of the existing fluid out of the reservoir prior to adding the new fluid. Some people suggest using the Eezi-Bleed empty to blow out the old fluid first but unless you are confident you can get all the air out afterwards this isn’t recommended. Note that it is a split-system where one circuit operates the Rear and smaller front pistons and the other operates the larger front pistons.
Buying brake fluid in bulk from a motor factor is often cheaper, e.g. 5lt can work out as cheap as 2 x 1 litres. Note that DOT 5 is NOT compatible for mixing with older fluids therefore ONLY use DOT 3 or 4. If you have a lot left over and intend storing if for any length of time be sure to make the container as airtight as possible otherwise it will degrade in the bottle. Obviously this is not an area to economise on, particularly as the fluid is likely to boil just when you need it most (e.g. on long descent) so if in doubt just buy new fluid every 2 years. Be sure to dispose of the old stuff responsibly at your local recycling depot.
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